Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league

Main page

New articles

Requests

Participants

Notability Guideline

Style Guide

Assessment

Resources

Welcome to the discussion page of the Rugby League WikiProject! To start a new discussion section, please click here

Challenge Cup semi final

Request Challenge Cup semi final be moved to draft space as article is incomplete and unreferenced. Mn1548 (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, it should probably be sent to AfD, as it's already been PROD'ed a couple of times. Semi finals aren't really notable enough to be considered anything more than trivia. J Mo 101 (talk) 23:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If we take FA Cup semi-finals, the Challenge Cup article has the potential to be a well written article, but agree it shouldn't exist in the mainspace in its current state. Mn1548 (talk) 09:24, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

No further discussion will move to draft for now. Mn1548 (talk) 09:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Phil Lowe

Was his move to Manley a loan, if KR had the power to recall him after three years? Mn1548 (talk) 15:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Manly paid £15,000 to sign Lowe for three years, after which he would either return to Rovers on a free transfer, or stay with Manly a further two years if an additional £10,000 was paid (which of course the two clubs later disagreed over). I don't think it was really a loan, the RFL were still using the Retain and transfer system at the time, so presumably Rovers kept him on the club register so he couldn't sign for another club when he returned to England. J Mo 101 (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Cheers, thanks. Mn1548 (talk) 13:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect DOBs added by User:Hugh 3476

Just a friendly reminder to adhere to WP:RELIABILITY and WP:NOR when editing, and to check for incorrect information in articles if possible! I've noticed several players of the pre-WWII era had unsourced DOBs listed which were incorrect and not even similar to the correct date. It appears these were added by User:Hugh 3476 (since banned for unrelated reasons) around 2018-19 and remained on the pages uncontested ever since. Some examples:

• Roy Bossi: Hugh's edit, my correction
• Tom Nevin: Hugh's edit, my correction
• Charles Rice (rugby league): Hugh's edit, my correction
• Stan Robinson (rugby league): Hugh's edit, my correction
• Clarrie Tupper: Hugh's edit, my correction

Narkova (talk) 10:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Moral of the story, any IP that's 1.14x.xxx.xxx, or 1.12x.xxx.xxx be suspicious of. Local Potentate (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Asia-Pacific Rugby League contradiction

Infbox states organisation is based in Brisbane whereas history section says it is based in Auckland. Both are unsourced. Mn1548 (talk) 16:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Someone changed it to Brisbane without a source. I've switched it back as the official site says Auckland. J Mo 101 (talk) 17:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

List of Hull F.C. players

I'm currently working on an update for this article (last updated in 2018), there's been a large turnover of players since then!

I'll be adding all new players since then, using Heritage Numbers | Hull FC as my primary reference, alongside other sources.

As part of this refresh, I plan to add a Heritage No. column (to bring it in line with corresponding lists articles for Featherstone, Oldham, Halifax, Leeds, Saints etc, plus the Aussie clubs).

I've been in touch with J Mo 101, who has put me straight on Heritage No. in the main player articles, so thanks for that.

Before I press the button, does anyone have any objections, or advice? All feedback gratefully received.

Robinson Drinkald (talk) 11:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I would note is that the page is already quite large (over 300kb), which can slow down loading times etc, but removing all the duplicate links in the season columns would help with that. No issues otherwise, editing those huge lists can be a bit of a mammoth task, so appreciate the effort!. J Mo 101 (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Player infobox clarification

Regarding notability of clubs in rugby league players' infoboxes per MOS - rule "Players 3.a.ii" is in desperate need of clarification. I have noticed removal / absence of NSW Cup and Queensland Cup club statistics based off the fact that they are second tier competitions, despite being more notable clubs (rule 3.a.i) and actually having a Wikipedia page (rule 3.a.iii) than other clubs that would theoretically qualify with rule 3.a.ii. For example, as currently written, Lillestrøm Lions would qualify under rule 3.a.ii (as they are a Norwegian FIRST division team) but not Western Suburbs Magpies (as they are an Australian SECOND division team). In short, the rule excludes clubs that are way more notable than some of the clubs it includes. Mn1548 (talk) 22:11, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It could be time to review and update the MOS as it was written in 2008. The talk page archives for the infobox show various discussions from the time about what the infobox should include, but consensus on this may have changed given that most of the editors involved are no longer active and several of them were the same editor (later banned as a sockpuppet). EdwardUK (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I honestly had no idea that MOS page even existed. My understanding has always been that the following should be included:

• UK: All teams in the top three divisions
• Australia: NRL teams only (or NSWRL/Brisbane League for pre-NRL). Modern day Queensland Cup teams etc are generally excluded as they are considered "reserve grade" (with most of them being NRL feeder clubs).

There isn't really a consensus for clubs in other countries, as far as I know, but really obscure/amateur clubs should obviously be removed regardless of division. J Mo 101 (talk) 18:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

For other countries and lower level competitions a lack of sources could be a problem. I would not be opposed to including NSW/Queensland Cup teams and there are sources for them on sites like RugbyLeagueProject. This would be helpful for internationals playing for teams like PNG for whom the infobox would otherwise be almost empty if all their club appearances are for PNG Hunters. For affiliated clubs the names are easy to distinguish from the NRL sides, but to avoid confusion between NRL and their reserve grade sides their stats could be listed separately and marked as such by adding (NSW) after the team name (similar to how loans/dual registrations are noted). EdwardUK (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

"This would be helpful for internationals playing for teams like PNG for whom the infobox would otherwise be almost empty if all their club appearances are for PNG Hunters" This sums up my issue perfectly. Say for instance a player played for Brisbane Broncos for a few years, had a dip in form when over to PNG Hunters for a few years, then returned to the NRL, the missing stats would give the impression that said played abandoned the sport for those years in the Queensland Cup at first glance, especially for a reader unfamiliar with the topic. Even more important, for players spending their entire carer in the NSW / Queensland Cup. Mn1548 (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not qualified to speak on other countries, but am happy with the guidelines about NSW/Q Cup not being included as they are at a "reserve grade" level, as J Mo said. Doctorhawkes (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Are there sources to support this? No NRL reserve teams actually complete in the Queensland Cup, and the reserve teams competing in the NSW Cup doesn't necessarily make it a reserve competition (see my Real Madrid analogy below). Mn1548 (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Hence the quotation marks. Obviously it's a lower level competition, though. Details of lower grade competition can be covered in the article, but trying to distinguish in the infobox between a NSW Cup and NRL team with players playing for both simultaneously sounds ugly and misleading. And, honestly, I believe the average reader cares very little. The soccer examples just sound like WP:OTHERSTUFF. Doctorhawkes (talk) 07:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding distinguishing in the infobox, that can be done quite clearly. "[Team] Reserves", "[Team] A", "[Team] II", etc. just use whatever official notation the respective club uses. Mn1548 (talk) 12:40, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Are there any sources to say that NSW / Queensland Cup are reserve grade competition? Obviously some NRL teams play there reserve sides in those tournaments, but they also have clubs whose first teams play in them also. Comparing to football, to me, its like like how Real Madrid Reserves compete in the Spainsh third tier (a senior competition) where as Manchester United Reserves compete in Professional Development League (a dedicated reserve competition). Mn1548 (talk) 22:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Just giving another example of the problems with the current system. PNG Hunters: currently stats from this club are not included because they are competing in "reserve grade", however if they opted to compete in the PNGNRL (their home league and a "first grade" competition) then we would despite the fact they would be arguably, a less notable club. Mn1548 (talk) 22:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Preprogram teams?

This is a bit tangential to the above, so I'm going to split it out here. If the intention is to only list certain clubs and certain levels of play, would it make sense to have the infobox disallow any team that does not fit that billing? In other words, if |club1=Team A and |club2=TeamB were input, but only TeamB was an "acceptable" team, Team A wouldn't be listed. If I've totally misread the intention of the above discussion feel free to trout me and hat this. Primefac (talk) 12:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

It could be done, but the team list would be quite long and complicated if it had to take into account historic team names, piped links to the current names, and things like nowrap templates and loan/DR arrows. EdwardUK (talk) 19:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I do suppose that would be more useful as a "brand new infobox" territory where we could get it working the way we wanted right out of the gate. Retrofitting thousands of transclusions to ensure they match what we "want" is going to be more hassle than it's worth... Primefac (talk) 19:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

That would definitely add consistency to infoboxes of all players if it would be done. But would need a strong concensus and regular updating as it could end up being too indiscriminate. Mn1548 (talk) 22:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

What is an appearance?

Reading people's views on this, I think it's clear that the main question that needs to be answered is "What is an official club appearance in the eyes of International Rugby League?"

I think there needs to be a more universal approach to how the sport is viewed on the site (in all aspects of the sport not just player appearances) as its not a sport that only exists in the NRL or Super League which is how it seems to be treated sometimes. Mn1548 (talk) 12:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean... "Player A played a match for Club X" is an appearance in my mind. Is there another interpretation? Primefac (talk) 12:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Which would be my thoughts... specifically a senior men's, women's, or wheelchair competition. Mn1548 (talk) 08:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

IRL don't define domestic appearances, that's down to the national governing body. For our purposes, I'd say any competative match in a league or knockout tournament we acknowledge as notable. Nthep (talk) 13:23, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I feel in competitions we acknowledge as notable is a little vague and open to interpretation. I know in the most part players of non-notable competitions won't have articles, but I wouldn't surprise me if there is a top level player who started his career player for a club in a different country where the notability of said country's competition is questionable. But those stats are still stats and should be included. Mn1548 (talk) 09:05, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

RLP is a great resource, but is very incomplete. QLD/NSW cup appearance data only appears to have been recorded for the last decade or so, and adding this would lead to recency bias in comparison to past players. Sometimes less is more with the infobox (MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE encourages this approach). Any additional clubs a player appeared for can always be mentioned in the prose instead. J Mo 101 (talk) 10:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Fully agree with this, don't want any bais, and also don't want an overcrowded infobox. Just going back to football and how football players are displayed on Wikipedia, only senior league appearances are in the infobox then a full stats table below, trouble with that is very few rugby league players have a full stats box so that would be ALOT of work to implement that approach. Mn1548 (talk) 16:18, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

There's no one size fits all answer to this question. If there is a top-level player who starts their career in a country where the sport is still amateur then it would need to be a case by case assessment of whether their first experiences are relevant to the infobox. As J Mo 101 says it's all relevant for the article text and either way needs to be verifiable.

At the moment we have a very disjoined line up about what we have regular coverage of and what we consider notable:

1. Any of the UK's professional/semi-pro divisions
2. NRL but not NSW/Queensland cups (which could be argued as equivalent to the Championship/League One in the UK)
3. France's Elite One

and that's about it. We have no decision over other (semi-)professional leagues like any domestic New Zealand league. Then there are the newcomers which will need to be looked at like the new USARL national league that kicks off today.

Basically it's fluid and the best we can say is look at it on an individual basis and was it notable enough in that player's career to warrant inclusion in the infobox? Nthep (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That is very true, my personal opinion is that Super League, Championship, League 1, Elite 1, Elite 2, NRL, NSW / Queensland Cup should be included. At least for me, from the UK, NSW / Queensland Cup seems more notable that League 1 and seems incredibly relevant for players who started in NRL dropped down then came back up, so to the casual reader is doesn't look like the player had a break for several years. Also as previously mentioned, the Pacific Island players who have tons of international information written about them but nothing on their club careers. In regards to USARL/PNGNRL/NZNC etc these are questions for the future, but based on what happens could need answering sooner rather than later. Mn1548 (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)